Just, wow guys. This book. The knee-jerk reaction that I had was to write the dad off as a complete nut-job, also as a terrible person. But at the same time I think that Peggy’s mother deserves a little of the blame in what happened to her daughter. She’s so aloof—she basically leaves her daughter and husband without saying goodbye to go on tour—I’m not one to begrudge a woman her career, but I didn’t like her.
I agree about the mother- felt she was stereotypically Germanic—brusque, no affection. Of course, there is the fact that being a concert pianist is ALL she knew. Also, not to be forgotten—they got married when he was 17 and she was 25. Men are fools anyway, but YOUNG men?! They’re more immature to begin with and when you pile on marriage and fatherhood? Kaboom! I didn’t like him at all but probably for those reasons. He was lazy, should not have been a father, and had delusions about being a survivalist. And Peggy had to pay for it.
No way, no blame on the mother from me! James alone is responsible for his disgusting, horrific behavior. No matter what happens, normal people do not react by kidnapping, isolating, and raping their child. Even under duress. So unless Ute knew how terrifyingly unstable he was before she left (and I didn’t get that feeling), no.
I didn’t find Ute all that aloof, though; just a different kind of parent than I would be, maybe. Leaving without saying goodbye was weird, but at that point I was feeling like the recollection (being in first person) was childlike and not the most reliable there. That profession is chaotic schedule-wise. My own gigs are only within a 3-hour radius most of the time and if I leave when C isn’t home/awake, she has had issues remembering even when I prepped her. That’s where the other parent steps in with reassurance and reminders. Peggy’s dad didn’t; he was too wrapped up in his own interests. But we can assume he knew about the concert tour: Peggy specifies that in the narrative, so somebody had to tell her.
I thought Ute was a bit aloof; she always seemed so disinterested in Peggy; there were so many more frustrated and impatient words than kind ones. That said, I don’t place any blame with her. James was clearly immature and unstable. Marrying a woman who has a career that requires a lot of travel and having a child so young probably didn’t help him at all, but I can’t blame Ute for his decision to kidnap their child.
I initially didn’t dislike Peggy’s dad, especially before he dragged her across the continent to the remotest place he could find in Europe. Even after he took her away—I honestly believe that he was a little unhinged and perhaps doing what he thought was best, though that is debatable.
From the beginning, I disliked him pretty strongly. I went back and forth between thinking the dad was a self-centered jerk at best and thinking, “this is scary, he’s completely delusional.” As the novel progressed, those feelings ran together more and more.
My feelings about the dad were such a roller coaster. I started out disliking him, but then I started to have some sympathy because there was clearly some disconnect between him and reality. I couldn’t decide if he really thought the world was ending and took his hobby to the next level or not. Of course, my optimism was completely shattered by the end, which was difficult because I was rooting for him being disturbed, not evil.
How about the silent piano? I found that beautiful in a sad way. I thought it was a very poignant tool because when it all comes down at her mother’s house she is able to play that song, the one that brought her parents together. Very bittersweet.
I saw it a little differently: I don’t think she actually played La Campanella. That’s a difficult piece! As a piano teacher, I say no way. That being said, I do think she heard the piece in her mind as she played on actual keys at the end, regardless of what actually sounded; but again, maybe that imagination was a coping mechanism. She certainly needed some comfort at that point.
I wondered about the plausibility of Peggy learning to play that on a silent piano, but I hadn’t thought about that. Can you imagine what Ute must have felt seeing her sit at the piano and proudly play something that probably sounded like a mess to Ute?
The piano made me so sad because it symbolized so much and let Peggy remain connected to her mother. Her dad’s support of it makes me wonder if, even underneath all of his evil, he loved his wife because it was such an important instrument for her. It’s almost like he wanted Peggy to keep a connection with her mother in some way, but perhaps that’s just me looking for the humanity in the horror.
What about Oliver Hannigan, the guy who tricked the dad into believing that there was a well-stocked cabin in the woods to be found?
Did he really trick him, though? At the end, Michael says “all that survivalist stuff was only talk, bravado, boys playing games.” Maybe James took Oliver’s bravado far more seriously than ever intended?
I agree; I think that for most of the group, the survivalist stuff was just a hobby, a way to feel manly and capable. But I also wonder if Michael is only able to brush off their meetings as “only talk” because so many years have passed. After nine years, its easy to look back at your passions and dismiss them as juvenile games. And is it possible they took it more seriously than Michael is willing to admit, knowing the horrible things their “survivalist stuff” led James to do? I wonder if he says it was just “boys playing games” as a way of distancing himself from guilt.
I think you’re right and that Oliver really believed in all of the survivalist stuff but wasn’t “brave” enough to take the final step (I use that word loosely). Of course, the fact that the dad was “brave” enough to take that step would only serve as a way to cement his beliefs because it was up to him to carry them out.
What do you think about the story’s plausibility? It was 1976 and she was 8 when they go away. I truly don’t know—would a child of that age at that time believe first that their mother was dead (even though she had just talked to her) and more importantly that the world was gone, disappeared? It was a bit difficult for me to believe but I went with the story anyway.
I don’t know. I think that a child of that age is extremely malleable and she DID have a really close relationship with her dad, so that it would have been natural for her to believe him. What does an 8-year-old know about the end of the world? Kids put their trust into adults who are there for them—and I think at the outset of the book, her dad was there for her. If that makes any sense.
For years she’d been overhearing her father and his friends talk about possible reasons why they need to “prepare.” I also got the feeling she was a young 8. And it’s common for children to regress after a traumatic experience, so that could have come into play as well, especially as they got closer and closer to die Hütte.
I wonder if the reason that she accepted it is because she didn’t have a choice. I mean, her dad took her into the middle of the woods and told her the world had ended. Even if she didn’t believe it at first, at some point she would have had to accept her new reality because that is what she was stuck with.
It does make sense. I just really didn’t know. And there was the added fear of the river/water. But there again, he manipulated her.
Even before the most horrific events, there were signs of abuse. She was always fearful of his mood swings. He’d throw things, hit her, yell, etc. over the smallest infractions.
I was so impressed by how Fuller shaped the narrative around Peggy’s lapses in memory/creation of Reuben, sowing tiny hints of the truth while leaving out the memories Peggy has repressed. I’m thinking especially of the scene where James calls her Ute and comes into her bed; I wondered if he was about to rape her, but Peggy clearly blocked out the worst part of that memory. I kind of want to re-read the book again, to look for more clues that Peggy’s version of events isn’t quite right.
Can we just talk about PTSD for a minute? Leah has hit the nail on the head with Fuller’s ability to shape the narrative around the lapses in Peggy’s memory and I can only imagine the process her mind had to go through to help her to survive what she went through.
I felt like Peggy’s hallucination of Reuben was a protective mechanism—the only way she could cope with what was happening.
I have to admit, Reuben was my coping mechanism while reading about what was happening! I so wanted him to be real. Even when I realized he probably wasn’t.
Me, too! I think I became so involved with Reuben and his potential for saving Peggy that I didn’t even think to question his existence. Of course, that was probably the author’s intent, all along.
I think we’re agreed about Reuben being a protective mechanism. As much as I like my isolation, I don’t think that humans were meant to live that way—we’re ultimately social creatures and by creating Reuben—her brain was trying to save her sanity with the isolation AND being molested by her father.
I’m reading this so late and you all have a really great, long conversation here, so I’ll mostly stick to the comments…but I have to add this! Do any of you think the building of the silent piano and learning of La Campanella symbolized James grooming Peggy? I get the sense that the abuse went on for the majority of the time in the cabin, not necessarily just the one time he calls her into bed. I mean, Reuben’s name was on the wall when they arrived.
My mind just exploded, Shannon.
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Fuller plays with so many themes in this novel—what struck you most, readers? How did you feel about Ute and James? Did you see the ending coming? Or do you have a take on Our Endless Numbered Days we didn’t even consider?
In case you missed it, you can still read the Storify of our Twitter chat with Claire Fuller!
April 15, 2015 at 11:37 am
It’s still early in the morning, but I wanted to get a few thoughts/questions out!
I was skeptical of Reuben’s existence from the start (perhaps because I knew there was a surprising ending based on reactions from others?), but I wasn’t able to put together Peggy’s reason for creating him—that was definitely a surprise! There WAS a moment I thought maybe he was actually Oliver, am I alone in that?
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April 15, 2015 at 2:48 pm
I was skeptical of Reuben’s existence when he didn’t question her premise of them being the only people left in the world. I’m not sure how “early” that was, I’m guessing it was after your skepticism came about. And I was also a little slow on the uptake as to her rationale for creating him. I guess we never want to think of fathers (or anyone, but especially fathers) acting that way.
I didn’t have the same thought re Oliver, but it makes some sense, as I thought Oliver was going to be more of the story. For a moment, before James took off with Peggy and Oliver was visiting the house, there were some very weird vibes going on there. I actually first thought that James and Oliver were going to be having an affair. Some of the language about when they went off to bed was really ambiguous to me in that sense. So when it became clear what Oliver’s role really was, I thought he would have a bigger role.
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April 15, 2015 at 5:08 pm
I got those vibes between James and Oliver, too! Glad I wasn’t the only one.
And yeah, as soon as Reuben started talking to her, he seemed too… nonchalant?… about her situation. That’s when I started to doubt his existence; though I really, really, really hoped for him to be real even beyond that. Fuller did a great job making me continue to hope for something I knew wasn’t likely at all.
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April 15, 2015 at 5:12 pm
Yes! I think until I was hit in the face with what James was doing to Peggy and how Reuben played into that, I just kept hoping my doubts were wrong. He did seem very nonchalant about the whole situation, that’s a great way of putting it. But despite my hope I could never get past the fact that he would abandon the “cabin.”
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April 15, 2015 at 5:58 pm
Me too, on the vibes between James and Oliver.
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April 15, 2015 at 6:25 pm
Echoing vibes. I wonder why that is…what could that suggest about either one of them or the relationships in the book? With all of us noticing it, I doubt it was coincidental.
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April 17, 2015 at 2:01 am
I kind of wonder whether Fuller was aiming to misdirect readers? I definitely thought there was something sexual between Oliver and James, so I was shocked to find out, near the end, that Ute was the one having an affaire with Oliver. Could it be kind of a ‘look over here, while something is actually happening over there’ kind of thing?
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April 17, 2015 at 6:44 am
Maybe he was having affairs with each of them!
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April 17, 2015 at 10:49 pm
Monika, that is absolutely what I thought and mentioned in a reply above to Kerry. I thought he was a narcissist and as long as both Ute and James flattered and amused him he would gladly take what he wanted from both of them.
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April 19, 2015 at 5:40 am
ohhhhhhhh I didn’t know that’s what you meant by “what he wanted”!!
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April 18, 2015 at 10:30 am
There were two reasons for the relationship between Oliver and James – firstly, yes to misdirect readers – that it was Ute that Oliver was having and affair with, and secondly to make that more of a blow to James when he discovers it from Ute. Although Oliver and James aren’t having a sexual relationship, James is in a way besotted by Oliver – he looks up to him, considers him an expert on survivalism, perhaps he does even ‘fancy’ him in the way that you can with charismatic people. This is why James believes the information about die Hutte, and why he feels almost betrayed by Oliver as well as Ute, and makes the reasons for leaving with Peggy even stronger.
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April 15, 2015 at 11:59 pm
That’s the biggest thing that made me doubt his existence too! His whole reaction to Peggy being in the valley was all wrong.
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April 17, 2015 at 1:59 am
I also got those vibes about James and Oliver!
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April 15, 2015 at 6:45 pm
It’s a good point about Reuben never questioning Peggy’s (clearly incorrect) worldview.
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April 15, 2015 at 3:11 pm
I was also skeptical of Reuben’s existence from the start, but I had the same fear at one point, that Oliver was Reuben. Oliver struck me as so manipulative and evil at the beginning that I could imagine him continuing to manipulate James and even Peggy.
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April 15, 2015 at 3:52 pm
I like the twisted way you think, TJ! I’m disappointed that never even occurred to me.
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April 15, 2015 at 4:25 pm
Well, after that suspicion, it was a bit disappointing that Oliver never showed up again. I can see where you are coming from too, with that odd relationship between Oliver and James, so it was a bit surprising that he just fades away.
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April 15, 2015 at 4:33 pm
Me, too. For me, Oliver just ended up as a plot device to force the situation that took over the rest of the book. Which is fine, the thinking about it and potential anticipation of his recurrence added to the mystery a bit.
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April 15, 2015 at 6:00 pm
Thinking about it now, Oliver really was evil. He would have been the only person to know where James and Peggy had run off to, yet he obviously didn’t share that information. I hate him even more now!
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April 15, 2015 at 6:14 pm
I didn’t even think of this!!!
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April 15, 2015 at 6:57 pm
I didn’t either!
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April 16, 2015 at 1:17 am
I’m not sure I think any of us missed it. Without doing the math on the little boy’s age, I just thought he had an affair with Ute and ran off after he and James fought. He was American so I figured he went home and had no idea what he had set in motion.
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April 16, 2015 at 1:38 am
Good point, Catherine. I have to admit I didn’t think of that one, either. I was simply so wrapped up in the story I never even considered what had become of Oliver.
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April 18, 2015 at 10:24 am
I’ve put my thoughts about what Oliver was thinking / doing in a comment above.
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April 15, 2015 at 6:44 pm
I had never thought that he knew the whole time where they’d gone, and never said a thing. Asking myself how I missed that…
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April 15, 2015 at 11:56 pm
This occurred to me, but I think it’s likely he was just out Ute’s life and never knew that James and Peggy were missing. I don’t think he was evil, just bragging in a way he thought would be harmless.
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April 16, 2015 at 12:56 am
I also didn’t put that together! DUH he knew, or at least had an inkling of where they went!!! What an ass!
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April 17, 2015 at 1:56 am
You’re blowing my mind right now! Oliver WOULD have had an idea of where James and Peggy were.
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April 15, 2015 at 6:43 pm
Yes, there’s some discussion of Oliver up above, and I already said this–but I can’t figure out what Oliver was manipulating James & Ute (and, I suppose, Peggy) for. What did he stand to gain? Is it really just that he is that evil?
He certainly seems that way in Peggy’s recollections of him, but then, she was only 8 when she knew him, so how good a character judge was she, really? (Though kids can be shockingly adept at picking up on the “bad guys,” I’ll give you.)
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April 17, 2015 at 10:46 pm
I don’t know where I stand on the word ‘evil’, Kerry, but I could absolutely see him doing it as a narcissist. Ute had the money so flattering her and being intimate with her was easy and doing the same with James was fun. I saw him as a person with no thought for anyone but himself and his own entertainment and as he took nothing seriously (including his own actions) manipulating Ute and James was a silly game- fun for him and who cares about anyone else.
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April 18, 2015 at 10:25 am
That’s exactly the sort of man I thought Oliver was. He had no thoughts for the consequences of any of his actions.
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April 15, 2015 at 6:42 pm
I never doubted Reuben’s existence, until the very end (but I also avoided reviews of this one like the plague before I read it, because I had some weird suspicion that I really wanted to go into it blind… I suppose I was right about that, at any rate). Even at the end, I felt it was a little (intentionally) ambiguous, and wanted to talk myself into believing Peggy, but the further I get from finishing that, the more I realize he couldn’t have been real–too much of her story is flawed and there are too many holes.
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April 16, 2015 at 1:27 am
Reuben’s appearance at the times Peggy sees him is too convenient. It was always after having some altercation with her father. I suspected that he was a delusion from the start. He definitely becomes a girl’s fantasy of a perfect boyfriend. Too good to be true!
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April 15, 2015 at 1:36 pm
Stayed up late finishing this one so I didn’t miss out on the discussion. I am so recommending it to my book club, there’s lots to discuss, as you guys have already pointed out.
Like a lot of you said, I didn’t hate the dad, even when I wanted to. I felt there were many times he truly showed his love for Peggy. Even later, I don’t think he was evil, just sick. And the isolation sure did not help. He knew the world did not end, yet maybe finding out about his wife’s affair, HIS world ended? I think it was easy for him to manipulate his daughter, she was 8 and trusted and loved him. I don’t think she ever really matured either. I think she still would have essentially still been a child even after 9 years. No socialization or education, you stay pretty impressionable.
My Reuben thoughts are all over the place. I wondered, if his name was there at the very beginning, like day one, why did he then disappeared for years and years, really until the last summer. Was there no abuse, until near the end? Was Phyllis her Reuben until she sacrificed her? I also assumed he was imaginary but hoped that he was real, from a nearby village or something.
I was waiting for her to see an airplane fly overhead, to realize they were not the last two survivors.
What character names an author chooses always fascinate me, as does finding the title in the story somewhere (small things amuse me). The title was interesting, as they didn’t actually number their days and Rueben seems an odd choice for an 8 year old girl to come up with. But Rapunzel = locked away in a tower.
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April 15, 2015 at 2:41 pm
Your take on Reuben is interesting, Susan, I hadn’t even thought about Peggy creating him from the get-go. I just assumed that his name was really there when Peggy arrived at the cabin and she eventually built her protective story around him as her coping mechanism. Thus, he only “appeared” to her when she really needed him (i.e., when James was going to kill the both of them). Before then, she could imagine him in her mind while the abuse was taking place as a way of disassociating.
I also had the impression the abuse (if we’re using that term to mean solely the physical abuse/rape) didn’t not take place until later on, when James was really over the deep end, but hadn’t even thought of Phyllis in that way, which is a really good point.
Your thoughts on Peggy’s maturation level was spot-on for me. Which is why I found it a bit startling when she “put her hand between her legs” in bed at what seemed a very young age. She did seem very isolated and naive. That also made me wonder if the physical abuse started earlier than I had originally interpreted and thus her sexuality, warped as it was, also came to the surface early on.
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April 15, 2015 at 3:47 pm
I agree, I think Reuben being on the wall was a coincidence and served as a nice inspiration for a story Peggy would later create in her head. She had a lot of time to herself, so obviously she’d have a lot of time alone with her imagination. I don’t think she had him from the beginning.
Agree with the abuse not taking place immediately. But I assume it happened much more often than we knew.
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April 15, 2015 at 5:57 pm
That makes the most sense. That his name was there originally and she built him from that. I guess when she wrote out his name in the hospital, I thought she might have written it in the cabin too. I wish sometimes I could read for the story and not always try to over analyze every little thing.
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April 17, 2015 at 1:45 am
I agree. And I also assumed that there was much more abuse than we know about. She clearly blocked out a lot; even the abuse we DO know about had to be read between the lines.
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April 18, 2015 at 10:00 am
This was very deliberate. Since the reader is inside Peggy’s head, and it is written in the first person, Peggy herself almost isn’t aware of the abuse – or certainly is adept at blocking it out. I wanted it to be like that for the reader too.
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April 15, 2015 at 4:34 pm
I don’t know why, when I added to the post, I wasn’t thinking about Reuben’s name having been there (maybe because she wrote both in the hospital), but that totally makes sense. I do still see parallels between James teaching Peggy the piano and forcing her into sexual situations, so I think there may be some symbolism there.
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April 15, 2015 at 4:58 pm
I think you’re right, though I’m not sure it occurred to me at the time. I think it was all part and parcel of his gradual metamorphosizing of Peggy into Ute.
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April 18, 2015 at 9:59 am
Your interpretation of James teaching Peggy the piano is interesting. I saw it more as a comfort for them both – something from home, something of Ute’s.
Also though, I saw the person who ‘had control of the music’ was the person with the power (so you might be on to something!). In the beginning, at home, this is Ute – she doesn’t teach Peggy; later this is James when he creates the piano for Peggy, and towards the end it is slightly Oskar when he teaches Peggy to play (and he is at home in her house), and finally it is Peggy when she plays right at the end, and takes control of her own destiny.
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April 18, 2015 at 6:15 pm
Oh, that makes total sense! I saw the power it had with James, but didn’t see how it bled across to others…love it.
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April 15, 2015 at 5:26 pm
I had a little trouble telling how much time had gone by after that first winter, so I think it’s interesting you felt like she did that at what seemed like a very young age. I thought time had fast-forwarded quite a bit and she’d hit puberty at that point. But, if the abuse had been going on even earlier, your thoughts on that would make sense, sadly. 😦
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April 15, 2015 at 6:30 pm
I had trouble with the time periods as well, so you may be right that she was older. I also have no idea how being so isolated would impact sexual development. I just remember being surprised when that happened.
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April 15, 2015 at 6:41 pm
I struggled with the timeline, too, but I liked how well Fuller made that confusion work–if Peggy (and James) weren’t keeping tracking of days/time, it would make sense that Peggy’s recollections of that whole period are slightly blurred and marked by nothing but the seasons, right?
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April 18, 2015 at 9:55 am
I’ve written in previous comments about whether I think Peggy carved Reuben’s name or not (although I’m happy for readers to make their own minds up).
Reuben does only ‘appear’ to Peggy when she is suffering – not necessarily sexual abuse, but anything she is having trouble with. Phyllis is also a coping mechanism, but I think she needed some comfort even with the suffering that she believes her mother and the rest of the world is dead.
I imagined that the sexual abuse / rape didn’t start to happen after Peggy gets her first period, which is around the time of the forest fire, and when James starts really showing signs of a mental disorder. It is after this that Peggy puts her hands between her legs – so I’m imagining she’s already 16 or 17 (her periods I believe would start late because of a very poor diet).
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April 15, 2015 at 3:07 pm
I agree, Susan… I thought James was sick, not evil. I thought the name Reuben was already on the wall; maybe the name of the person who built the cabin and then abandoned it. And when Peggy became too old for her doll, she used the name Reuben as a coping mechanism.
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April 15, 2015 at 6:38 pm
That’s what I figured about Reuben’s name on the wall, too. Though Shannon’s point at the end (above) is definitely thought-provoking!
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April 18, 2015 at 9:46 am
I too saw James as ill, rather than evil. He was misguided, naive, and headstrong, and then mentally unstable. What he did to Peggy, although in no way excusable, was his way of coping with the situation that he refused to back out of. Using Phyllis, and the Reuben was Peggy’s coping mechanism – as you say. (And I’ve written a comment to Susan about Reuben’s name on the wall)
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April 15, 2015 at 6:39 pm
Really good point about the airplane. I hadn’t thought of that.
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April 15, 2015 at 7:07 pm
I was waiting for an airplane, too! Or a helicopter. Or hikers. Anything from the world that still existed!
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April 16, 2015 at 1:19 am
I did think the same thing- as in how isolated could they be that you wouldn’t even hear the noise of an airplane? But then I’m not knowledgable on European geography!
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April 18, 2015 at 9:40 am
It was hard even in the 1970s to find a location in Europe that was remote enough for people to live undiscovered for nine years, but not so uninhabitable that they couldn’t survive.
I chose the Bavarian forest (although they could have strayed into the even denser forest on the Czech Republic side) firstly because my mother knows the area and believed that parts can be remote, and also because the story was inspired by Robin Van Helsum, a Dutch teenager who appeared in Berlin in 2011 saying he had been living in the forest with his father for the past five years. Admittedly this would have been a different forest, but forest ‘experts’ claimed at the time that it would have been possible for Van Helsum and his father to live undiscovered – and this was much later than 1976.
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April 16, 2015 at 1:41 am
My impression of the carved name was that it had been made by some past inhabitant and she just fixated on it.
I thought they would have been found by eventual urban sprawl.
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April 17, 2015 at 1:42 am
Ooh, I like that explanation of Reuben’s name!
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April 18, 2015 at 9:34 am
So pleased you liked it Susan. I’m a strong believer in the idea that once a book is published and being read, then the book becomes whatever the reader makes of it, so whatever my intentions, what a reader thinks is equally valid. That said, I did have lots of intentions – although these were often to leave things open for the reader to interpret.
In chapter ten, when Peggy first finds the name Reuben carved into the wall of die Hutte, she has just taken her father’s skinning knife out of the rucksack and put it in her pocket. So, it’s possible that she could have carved the name herself – she had the tool to do it. But I think that the name was already there (it’s an unusual name for an eight year old to invent), and that the character of Reuben was created in her mind around that name.
Also, in an early draft there was a scene where Peggy hears gun shots – perhaps hunters in the woods, and James makes an excuse for it. In the end I took this out. Much like the idea of an airplane flying overhead I wanted to keep the bubble of her existence intact until she actually escapes. Not hearing or seeing anything from the outside world for nine years does take a little leap of the imagination, but I also think it’s possible – the woods are big enough, the area they live in secluded and remote enough, and airplanes follow routes, and if they’re not under a route they won’t see one.
If you have any particular questions, let me know. And if your book club do read it, I’m also happy to answer questions via email.
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April 15, 2015 at 3:02 pm
Oh, I can tell this is going to be interesting… First, I didn’t start out disliking James. I thought he was immature and insecure and clearly couldn’t handle the crisis in his marriage. I didn’t particularly like Ute and her running away on a concert tour struck me as odd. But then I felt that she was just as much manipulated by Oliver as James was. I saw Oliver as the only evil one in this book. Do you all agree that he is the father of Ute’s son? Clearly, what James is doing to his daughter is nauseating, but I can’t call him evil. I think he’s going crazy in the wilderness, and there is unfortunately no one to intervene.
I also think that the name Reuben was already on the wall when James and Peggy arrived (someone had to build the cabin and tell the survivalists about it), and that Peggy took that name and built her protection around it. Even though I didn’t believe that Reuben was real and kind of suspected what was going to come, I was impressed by the build-up of suspense and how I slowly started to question Peggy’s reliability. I found Peggy a believable character and since it is never entirely clear how many years are passing, I thought her naivete believable.
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April 15, 2015 at 6:17 pm
Where is the line drawn between sick and evil? You’re really making me think this over, TJ.
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April 15, 2015 at 7:02 pm
I didn’t get the sense that James set out with the intention of hurting Peggy. I think the isolation got the worst of him, in the worst possible way.
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April 15, 2015 at 7:30 pm
I agree, I think. I suppose it’s ultimately a question of: does the person have to have that “evil” inside in the first place in order for the “sickness” to take that manifestation? Which of course leads to the issue of do we ALL have some form of evil inside us that is kept in check by the very things James lost during isolation? I agree I don’t think James set out with the intention of hurting Peggy.
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April 15, 2015 at 6:34 pm
That’s one of the things Fuller did so well- built layers for these characters. I agree about James- he just annoyed me but he was 17 when they got married and he was basically a kept man. He never had to work. It was only after they were in the cabin and things were so bad as far as basic survival that I started to actively dislike him.
I definitely agree about Oskar (right name?) being Oliver’s son. He manipulated both Ute and James.
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April 15, 2015 at 6:37 pm
I agree that he manipulated them–but to what end? Did he stand to gain anything at all from breaking up their marriage and sending James off? Because even though, yes, James left of his own volition, Oliver’s the one who promised him a habitable, fully stocked cabin in the woods, which felt like the straw that broke that camel’s back to me. But then, Peggy is so young when she witnesses all of that that it’s hard to tell what is real and what she misunderstands, I think.
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April 15, 2015 at 7:00 pm
The only thing I can surmise, Kerry, is that Oliver was hoping to drive James off so he could have Ute (dynamo that she was). We’re never provided any hint that he pursued her (or didn’t, for that matter), so I’m with you in having little clue what his point was. My conclusion was he was simply the mechanism by which Fuller got James and Peggy out to the cabin.
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April 15, 2015 at 7:02 pm
So, we mentioned the weird vibes between them down below…could those tie in somehow?
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April 15, 2015 at 7:04 pm
That seems a possibility. There were definitely weird vibes between Oliver and James, but I was never clear on what they were, exactly (likely, again, a factor of being told about said vibes via an 8-year-old’s recollections).
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April 15, 2015 at 7:05 pm
That’s definitely true…Peggy could have misread/relayed the tension between Oliver, James and Ute.
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April 16, 2015 at 12:53 am
When Oliver made the comment about leaving something behind or a keepsake (I can’t remember the exact quote), I was thinking there was a relationship between James and Oliver initially, and the “keepsake” was like an STD or something. Then James gave it to Ute, and that’s why she was pissed…. definitely wrong on that account….
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April 15, 2015 at 7:03 pm
I suppose it makes sense that we wouldn’t know if Oliver pursued Ute or not, since Peggy wouldn’t have had any way to know what happened after she and James left.
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April 18, 2015 at 10:22 am
In a way you’re right. There needed to be a BIG reason for a man to take his child off to the woods. James believed that Ute’s baby was Oliver’s. That’s the main reason James leaves.
Oliver is simply a charismatic (and not very nice man). He doesn’t really want James (as his friend) or Ute as his lover, or to be part of the Retreaters. He moves from one game to the next – all of it bores him. I don’t think he was really aware of the mess his actions make. He certainly doesn’t know that James and Peggy leave until Ute comes home and finds them missing.
Oliver does give James the map and tells him about the cabin, but even that isn’t high up in his consciousness. At the tea party at the end Michael says that Oliver didn’t join in with the search, so we can assume he didn’t mention the map, or had perhaps forgotten all about it.
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April 18, 2015 at 10:15 am
When Ute first learns she is pregnant with Oskar, when she is still in Germany, she believes that the baby might be Oliver’s. That’s why she phones up and tells James this (although since the story is narrated by Peggy, Peggy is unaware of what Ute tells James, but the argument between Oliver and James immediately follows this phone call). But then much later when Ute is telling Oskar and Peggy about when Oskar was born, Ute says that she could see straightaway that the father was James, not Oliver. But this makes Ute feel guilty because she believes it was her telling James about the pregnancy and her affair / one night stand with Oliver that made James take Peggy.
Sorry that’s so convoluted – I hope it makes sense. In other words, James is Oskar’s father.
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April 18, 2015 at 10:11 am
I know that I’ve had conversations with my now adult children and they’ve remembered things completely differently to me. I’m not sure that Ute wouldn’t have told Peggy she was going away, it’s just that Peggy doesn’t remember it. (Part of her unreliable narration perhaps, and also that in some ways Peggy wants to blame Ute rather than James. She says to her mother that she should have been there to stop James taking her – she wants to make her guilty.)
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April 15, 2015 at 6:30 pm
No one has mentioned the ending. Is it ambiguous? What did you all think?
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April 15, 2015 at 7:01 pm
In the Twitter chat, Claire mentioned that she wanted readers to be able to walk away with their own opinions even though she had her own…so I suppose it could be seen as ambiguous, which is probably what makes it such a great story.
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April 15, 2015 at 7:33 pm
I loved that was her intent. Did you think Peggy killed herself? That was my takeaway.
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April 15, 2015 at 10:05 pm
Granted I finished his book quite late last night, but I went back and reread the last chapter, because when you suggested she killed herself, I was all, she killed herself? When? What? And now after my rereading, I still didn’t get that impression. I guess I can see it, giving Oskar the picture and all, but, the impression I got was she was sort of reminiscing of the only real life she knew. Even after escaping, she never thought bad of her father. I think she would have lived there forever with him if he didn’t want to kill them both.
I appreciate the author wants everyone to walk away with their own opinions but ambiguity drives me crazy. I like to know my opinion is the right one 🙂
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April 15, 2015 at 11:58 pm
I didn’t find the ending ambiguous at all and also don’t see any particular reason to believe she killed herself. I do think the story stopped before Peggy was recovered, but I didn’t see hints at different ways things might play out.
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April 16, 2015 at 1:55 pm
Wow, I’m coming to this a day late… The interpretation of a suicide ending is blowing my mind! Interesting. But I didn’t read it that way.
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April 17, 2015 at 6:47 am
I didn’t, either. Now I’m feeling like I don’t remember the end at ALL!!
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April 16, 2015 at 12:50 am
I also, grabbed the book to re-read the end… I also don’t necessarily think she killed herself. I think she was, again, escaping into Reuben when things were getting too much to take. I LOVE that Claire gives the readers the power to come to their own conclusions, but I would highly curious to hear what HER thoughts are…
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April 16, 2015 at 1:11 am
Wow, I did not get a sense that she killed herself at all. The big twist to me was that she was pregnant but I could see how that might make her think of suicide. I simply did not read that in the final paragraphs.
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April 16, 2015 at 1:43 am
I don’t know if you get notification of my response to Katie about this, but it was simply the feeling of fatalism I got from her last acts leading up to the tub, and then the imagery of Reuben’s red hair. To me, that symbolized blood. I may be way off, but that’s the conclusion that immediately came to my mind when she gave up the picture and started heading to the bath.
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April 16, 2015 at 1:40 am
I think I felt a bit of fatalism in her actions leading up to the bathtub and there was something about the imagery of her thinking of Reuben’s red hair that evoked blood for me.
For me it depends on the book/story whether I appreciate a vague or semi-ambiguous ending. Oftentimes it’s maddening, such as when a mystery isn’t solved. In a case like this, it didn’t bother me and also left more room for discussion. And in part, the beauty of it is you can know your opinion is the right one. As is mine. 🙂
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April 17, 2015 at 1:51 am
I didn’t get that impression at all, but now I want to go back and re-read the ending! I love a book that can spark debate like this 🙂
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April 17, 2015 at 3:46 am
I think the cheese (i.e., me) stands alone on this interpretation, Leah, but I’d be interested to know your thoughts if you do re-read. I probably should, too! And I wholeheartedly agree about the discussion. What fun is it if everyone has the same experience to share. I learn something new about every book I talk about with someone else, whether I agree with the interpretation or not.
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April 16, 2015 at 1:44 am
No one else seems to see much ambiguity in the end, whereas I think she killed herself. Whether you think that or not, Shannon, what is the ambiguity you saw?
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April 16, 2015 at 1:48 am
I think it’s pretty clear, but there are definitely many unanswered questions, so I could see how we could all come up with different theories based on how we read into things.
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April 16, 2015 at 1:52 am
Now you’re being ambiguous/diplomatic! 🙂 Clear she lives and is just enjoying a bath and her memories? I don’t mind being on the opposite end from the majority, wouldn’t be the first time!
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April 16, 2015 at 2:00 am
Haha! I didn’t get the sense that she killed herself, but I *do* think it’s one of those endings that’s ripe for discussion…and Claire made it clear there have been a ton of interpretations, so I bet you’re not alone in thinking that!
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April 16, 2015 at 2:02 am
And she’s never going to tell us, is she? I kinda like that.
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April 18, 2015 at 10:06 am
Will it spoil it for you if I tell you my intentions?? 🙂 I don’t see it as meaning that I’m right though… Let me know if you want me to.
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April 18, 2015 at 5:35 pm
I’d love to know your intentions. They won’t spoil anything for me, even if I’m out in left field by my lonesome. It’s a position I’m used to. 🙂 Thank you for a wonderful read and especially for stopping by and adding your thoughts to the conversation. This is such a wonderful forum for this type of interaction and having your perspective adds all the more.
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April 18, 2015 at 6:04 pm
OK. I’m afraid I think you are out on your lonesome 🙂 But that doesn’t mean you’re wrong, just that Peggy thinking about suicide wasn’t my intention at all.
I actually see her as being quite positive at the end. She realises that Oskar needs some kind of father figure in his life – that’s why she put the photo of James back together.
She likes the idea of the baby inside her, but that’s really because she still believes in Reuben, and believes it is his. The way Peggy relates the story to herself doesn’t acknowledge that Reuben wasn’t real, that her father abused her, that she killed her father, and the baby is his. So, she’s still living in her fantasy world, and therefore rather content.
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April 18, 2015 at 6:13 pm
It’s ok, the weather here is nice and a little solitude can be a good thing. 🙂 I don’t mind being wrong, it won’t be the last time. I do “like” your intent more than my interpretation, but do you see Peggy just continuing on in her delusion/fantasy world, or eventually coming to terms with it? And I don’t mean to infer she does so with negative results, merely that she begins to take steps back towards reality. And that may not be an answerable question. You’ve created a character people care enough about to talk about/debate all this, which is pretty fantastic.
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April 18, 2015 at 6:34 pm
Oh, beyond the end of the book, she’ll definitely have to take steps back towards reality, but I don’t know what the results of that would be (that really is up for readers to have an opinion on as much as me, since it hasn’t been written!). Would she mentally fall apart and not recover, not be able to live with the knowledge, or recover? I wonder…
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April 18, 2015 at 6:38 pm
Strangely enough, as the one who thought she did herself in in the tub, I imagine she would recover on that path. I wondered about Ute and her willingness to get Peggy the help she needed, but I think post-tub Peggy turns out ok. I’m not always a fount of death and doom. 🙂
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April 20, 2015 at 5:58 pm
I didn’t get the idea that she killed herself but I do think she had PTSD, which is to be expected after the ordeal she went through. Although, I’m still holding out hope that the whole story was a farce and the nice boy was real.
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April 15, 2015 at 6:46 pm
Did anyone else find it interesting that even after Peggy re-enters the real world, in the hospital, it takes her some time to determine that her father wasn’t merely mistaken about The Great Divide, but that he had lied? She was so caught up in his story, whether she originally believed it or not, that it was like her brain couldn’t catch up to this new reality, where they speak German in the Great Divide and there are more than three people left alive (two if you discount Reuben).
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April 15, 2015 at 7:31 pm
Yes, and I suppose that’s where we get into the discussion of PTSD and its impact. Does she continue in her beliefs because the truth is just too difficult to deal with. That’s ultimately why I believe she killed herself in the end.
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April 15, 2015 at 11:55 pm
I thought that was very interesting too! I thought it was believable though.
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April 16, 2015 at 12:47 am
I found it completely believable that she didn’t snap back to reality right away. Think about being told something, and then living that something for near 10 years! I’m sure there was the need for Peggy to constantly re-evaluate and re-shape anything and everything from her past to her new reality. I like how it wasn’t like, oh she escaped, and now all is well. I think the psychological implications of this event were well described.
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April 15, 2015 at 11:52 pm
I don’t know that I think the mother was part of the problem, but I think she would have been eventually had the dad not kidnapped Peggy. She wasn’t just distant. Even as young as she was, Peggy clearly felt that her mother was impatient with her, bored by her, and only paid attention to her in front of other people to look good. So had Peggy’s father not taken her, I think she still would have had a terrible home life.
I thought the fact that the father was abusing Peggy was incredibly obvious from the very beginning, so I had no sympathy for him. I’m not certain, but I suspect he was abusive before he even kidnapped her, at least physically and maybe sexually as well. Why else would she have been so terrified of disappointing him that she wet her pants when he wanted to show off her survival skills to Oliver? I thought the piano playing was very creepy because I was already on the alert for her father being abusive and I think the piano playing was part of his delusion that she was Ute. I realize he probably has some kind of mental disorder, but I just can’t empathize with someone who would hurt a child.
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April 16, 2015 at 12:34 am
So, was the end of the book disappointing for you? I found it slightly slow moving to start and was hanging in because I knew there was a twist. Thankfully, it was a pay off for me, since I didn’t see much of it coming, but I could see that being disappointing if I had.
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April 16, 2015 at 2:13 pm
Honestly, yes, it was. Toward the end of the book I kept wondering what the point was and when something exciting would happen and since the abuse seemed obvious to me, it didn’t make the ending more interesting when it was revealed.
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April 20, 2015 at 6:00 pm
I found the whole book pretty riveting but the twist definitely threw me through a loop. I had no idea it was going to end like that!
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April 18, 2015 at 10:04 am
It wasn’t my intention for readers to think that James was abusing Peggy before he took her (but I’m really happy for readers to interpret the book any way they want). I think that Peggy was much closer to her father than her mother. She looked up to him, cared about whether she pleased him. James was showing off his skills to Oliver and Peggy knew it was important, that’s why she wets herself when she gets it wrong.
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April 19, 2015 at 1:46 am
I’m kind of sad I interpreted it the way I did, because I think that had me on the look out for abuse. As soon as Peggy wet herself, I thought “what is she so afraid of?!”. And of course, it is possible that she might just be that worried about letter her father down but that isn’t the conclusion I came to. As a result of the way I interpreted this, her father’s poor parenting and quick anger during the early parts of the story really stood out to me and the big reveal that he was abusing her lost a lot of its impact. Although that meant the ending wasn’t as great for me as it was for most readers, I enjoyed the book overall and really appreciate you taking the time to stop by and talk to us! It’s fun to know what you were thinking as you wrote that scene.
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April 19, 2015 at 11:15 am
And I really appreciate your comments. No book is liked by everyone, and as long as criticism is constructive, it’s always helpful.
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April 20, 2015 at 5:59 pm
I totally didn’t get the abuse part in the beginning but now that I know I’m willing to bet that a reread would prove differently.
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April 16, 2015 at 1:51 am
I just wanted to send a huge thank you to Shannon, Catherine, Monika, April, and Jennifer for putting this whole idea/site together and creating a space for us to discuss our books. I know it’s a ton of work and you’re all busy women already, but it’s appreciated!
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April 16, 2015 at 2:44 am
Thank you, Lauren!
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April 17, 2015 at 1:49 am
Thank you! We’re so glad you stop by and keep the conversation going. We appreciate your support!
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April 20, 2015 at 5:56 pm
I agree!
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April 16, 2015 at 4:17 pm
So I might be the only person that read this book that didn’t love it…I had no feeling about it really, one way or another. I connected with nothing. I wanted so much more from this book. I wanted to be invested in Peggy’s plight, I wanted to feel sorry for Ute or James. I could have felt sorry for James if we had got a better understanding of him. I feel like he may have been struggling with some kind of mental illness but it was never fleshed out. I don’t like dismissing him as just being really young and not prepared to be a father and then he ran away. There’s more to it – how else to explain the weird behaviour in the woods and ultimately the sexual abuse. I feel like Ute got shafted because she didn’t act in a traditionally feminine way – I don’t think she wanted to be a mother, i think she wanted to have a career at a time when most women didn’t have both. It seems unfair to punish her for that. But even that wasn’t enough to get me really connected with this. Peggy is a terrible narrator. She kind of gets away with it when she’s still at home – living in a tent with her father in the summer, not taking a bath, even whining on the long trek to the little house. But then she stays 8 and she has no idea how adults interact, how the world works etc and while that is super convenient for her father, it’s doing readers a bit of a disservice.
I’m not the kind of reader that needs all the answers but I felt like we had to do a lot of the heavy lifting while Fuller writes devastatingly beautiful passages about playing fake pianos. The Reuben thing, his name already being there…I think his name was there and she saw it so often that that’s the name she used for her imaginary saviour. Obviously she was going to end up killing her father, that’s the only way she was going to get out. I’m not always a fan of the kinds of books that layer a bunch of points of view but I think in this case the book would have benefited from hearing from Ute and James as well as Peggy. What did Ute think all these years? What happened with James’ friends? Why did James think the world was going to end? What was going through his head in the woods?
Ultimately I wanted so much more from this book than I got.
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April 16, 2015 at 7:53 pm
I definitely found myself wrapped up in the story as a whole, but I agree with you about how distant James felt. I suppose that was necessary in order to keep the end of the book under wraps, but he’s the character we really know the least about (just look at all the comments!). Like you said, we really don’t know if he was a predator from the get-go, or a man who snapped under the weight of mental illness and that makes him hard to sympathize with.
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April 17, 2015 at 6:40 am
Eva, I really like your comments about Ute here. I’m not sure I agree fully, but wow, your perspective makes me see her role in the story in a much different light.
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April 16, 2015 at 9:58 pm
Fabulous discussion! I read every comment. I finished the book last week and really enjoyed it.
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June 13, 2015 at 4:40 pm
I just finished this a couple days ago. I wondered if anyone else thought maybe Peggy suffers from a mental illness like her father? Of course her lack of socialization being the forest for nearly a decade and the abuse stunted her development and maturation into young adulthood, but the fact that she’s not outraged at her father after her return? That she’s insistent on adamantly upholding her fantasy of Reuben, despite the proof otherwise, and still SO childlike at 17? Just a thought.
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June 13, 2015 at 10:03 pm
I think it’s definitely possible, and it’s so hard to tell if she’s suffering a bit of Stockholm syndrome or if she would have developed a mental illness even without the situation she was in. So many different ways to approach the end of this book!
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February 6, 2016 at 8:11 pm
I know I’m pretty late to the party, but I have a question that I wanted to pose to you guys and see what you think. With all of the events leading up the “shocking twist” was the rape and eventual realization that Peggy was pregnant with her father’s child even necessary? To me it felt like overkill and a shoe-horned attempt to add drama where there was already plenty for Peggy to deal with. What do you all think?
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March 9, 2016 at 1:41 pm
Hi, I’ve just finished reading this book which i thought was really well written and very atmospheric. The ending was ok. Did i feel peggy commited suicide? No,I just thought she’d gone to have a bath! I picked up she was pregnant,but guessed this as the ending was ambiguous. Was Reuben real? I think he was in her own imagination. Totally missed the sexual abuse from her father,which is ridiculous as it was underlying throughout! And I guessed that the baby was her fathers and Reuben was her imaginary detatchment from her father. As was her doll. As Reubens name was carved into the cabins wall,I felt as a previous reader felt,that she fixated on the name that was carved before she and James had arrived at the hut. The fact that her image of Reuben was close to the description of her father,is a clue to the abuse. (Which I can see in retrospect!) Excellent story though. ☺
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June 25, 2016 at 6:03 am
I see a parallel between James and Peggy and Ute and James when it comes to sexual abuse. Although it seems as though Ute and James’s romantic relationship was consensual on the surface, it’s notable that they met when James was 17 and Ute was 25, a fact that Fuller makes explicit. It is implied that they had sex before he was legally an adult (“‘And then I invite him to my dressing room,’ Ute repeated. ‘And she gave me a lesson in page turning,’ my father said”). At this time, James was still underage and potentially not emotionally mature enough to truly give consent. In fact, James doesn’t seem to mature as he grows older and becomes a father. Instead he develops delusions about an Armageddon and obsesses over gaining Oliver’s approval, often at the expense of Peggy – things that may be acceptable for a 17 year old to do but not for a man with a young daughter. James seems to be emotionally stunted at age 17, when he was raped by Ute; similarly Peggy is stunted due to her rape by James. Given James and Ute’s eight year age gap, I would argued that Ute, while certainly not evil or crazy, may also be “sick” in a way. A 25 year old woman who chooses to have sex with and later marry a 17 year old boy indicates deeper mental issues. Ultimately, both Ute and James fail Peggy in their own way: Ute damages James and leaves a parent with the emotional capacity of a teenager with her 8 year old daughter, and James through his selfish reaction to hearing about Ute’s affair.
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